Are You on The Unstoppable Path? Building a Legendary Life with Remarkable People
The Investor's Guide To Joy Episode 8
Mark Gustafson is a former commercial lending executive with extensive experience in management, finance, sales, and marketing. He served as Senior Vice President and Regional Sales Manager at Wells Fargo Capital Finance for nearly 30 years, where he managed asset-based loan originations. Post-retirement, he co-founded Colorado Aerial Imaging and Exxedus Capital Partners, focusing on high-resolution imaging services and capital restructuring, respectively. Now officially retired, Mark enjoys spending time with his wife, three daughters, and grandchildren in Aurora, Colorado.
Highlights of the Podcast
01:07 - Personal Connection
02:54 - Career Stability vs. Frequent Changes
04:56 - Career Progression
06:37 - Hiring Perspective on Job Hoppers
08:45 - Interviewing and Assessing Candidates
10:05 - Developing and Assessing Character
12:16 - Influence of Ethical Environment
13:34 - Supporting Team Members' Career Goals
14:19 - Future Plans
15:02 - Career Approach and Perspectives
17:37 - Financial Philosophy
18:40 - Career Path and Opportunities
23:01 - Advice for Job Seekers
25:26 - Questions and Reflection
28:22 - Quotes and Wisdom
Paul Graham [00:00:08] Hey everyone, and welcome back to The Investor's Guide to Joy. My name is Paul Graham. Today I'm interviewing Mark Gustafson, who is the father of one of my good friends growing up. In this episode, we talk about his career in finance and banking, and he gives some interesting Thomas Jefferson quotes that I think are absolutely transformative and to how I'm thinking going forward. Hope you enjoyed this episode. All right. Hey everyone. Welcome back to The Investor's Guide to Joy. So I have an exciting guest today. His name's Mark Gustafson and we go way back not from business or from, you know, school, but actually from one of my good friends parents. And so it's exciting not only to spend, you know, kind of the younger years with Abby and her family, but also get to know Mark and his wonderful wife, Sheila. So we've had Mark come on, really just to talk about his experience and perspective, because it's different than most. And he's here today. So Mark, great to see you again. Thanks for being here and excited to hear just your thoughts and your life.
Mark Gustafson [00:01:07] Awesome. I'm thrilled to be here. Thanks, Paul.
Paul Graham [00:01:10] Yeah, you.
Mark Gustafson [00:01:10] Very kind words was very kind.
Paul Graham [00:01:12] That was that was the short version. No. I really enjoyed how, you know, you and your family have interacted and been a host. You know, to others, I've personally felt like if you, you know, had a son, I'd be there. Right. And it's just to say for how you guys have operated with, you know, opening up your doors and creating that sort of community and extending that into your daughters. And it's been a great, like experience for me to see, you know, a different family. Right? I grew up essentially as a only child. And so I have the experience I have, but it's not a bunch of kids running around, especially a bunch of girls, you know, running around. Right? And so it was fun, you know, for the middle school and high school years. And then occasionally as I travel back to college to, you know, to experience and, you know, as I even more occasionally come back to Colorado as my parents moved, you know, within your family as well as like, corporate sort of career, it seems as though you've been really consistent, even though there's been, you know, as we've talked a little bit like the the small changes. Right? So maybe every like two years or so, you're looking for something different or needing something different or things like that. I've been the, you know, similar but opposite. So like every like six months I'm like, man, I kind of want to change. Or is this for me? I have all these doubts and insecurities or unknown or I want to make more money or whatnot. And then typically at about a year and a half mark, I do, you know, change companies. What have you found like, is that just a different, you know, mindset or perspective or the people you've surrounding yourself with? Like, what does that been like for you and what what would is there a secret sauce like what if I what if I maybe best.
Mark Gustafson [00:02:54] I wish I could give you a secret sauce to that. Nothing could be so good. No, not the answer's no. The short answer is no. I guess the longer version is, quite frankly, throughout my career, you know, when I looked at resumes of I call those, you know, job hoppers, right? What the term is today, that's probably from the 90s or 2000. But, you know, I always ask the question, you know, in those interviews, like why? And it always struck me as, you know, well, am I going to be the short version of this person's resume 2 or 3 years from now as well? So quite frankly, I was always a little bit skeptical, rightly or wrongly. But I understand the need to to move and continually challenge yourself if it's for the right reasons. So for the for the record, you know, I was at an institution for 30 years, one, one institution. So but I changed jobs probably six times within that company. Sure. And so, yeah, every 3 to 5 years, 2 to 5 years, I either got antsy, I wanted to do something else, I want to do more. I got frustrated because I felt like if this might be kind of a, I don't know, self-serving way to say it, but I was felt like, well, gee, if I, if I was responsible for whatever business it was or if I was responsible for booking this deal, I would have got it done because we'd have found a solution to get it done versus not get it, you know, versus saying no. So those things always bothered me and I was always solutions oriented. So that was kind of the impetus of, of for me moving. And there's yeah, I think there's always a money component to it. But more than anything else, I think it was the desire to take on more responsibility and just do more with, you know, with my talents than I thought I had.
Paul Graham [00:04:31] Yeah.
Mark Gustafson [00:04:31] What did or does acquisitions.
Paul Graham [00:04:33] Sure. What I mean was that you asking questions of, hey, you know, I would like to move up or move around or do something different or have more capacity where those asks, were those things you just did and hope were good? Were those you seeing, you know, different opportunities and then taking advantage of it? And you had like clear line of sight of what could be impactful. What was that like?
Mark Gustafson [00:04:56] Great question. You know, I would you know, first of all, I would say I was always very fortunate because there's always somebody at, you know, it was a bank and I said the name of the bank, as a matter, it doesn't matter what bank it is really. So but I was. I was fortunate to have somebody interested in my career. First and foremost, I was and it's I think it's because I demonstrated, you know, a commitment and the ability to get the job done. I focus on the job I was doing at the time first. Right. My first piece of advice is, you know, do an excellent job at the job you have before you start walking around demanding or talking to people about the next job. And I can tell you, as a business leader, I always felt that frustrating when people were focused on being a VP. And I'm like, well, you're not even doing your job right now. I mean, so, well, I'm ready to go. So I would say I had people interested in me, but I was also interested and I made my I made my career path known. And so what I wanted to go from an auditor to a lender. I went to the president of the company, sat down in his office, and I said, listen, you know, you're the person running the company. So I want you to know what my career desires and what I would like to do. And you tell me if I'm off or if I'm wrong, or if you have a different thought for me. And, you know, I mean, I would say he was the most approachable guy, but he was certainly approachable. And I just thought it was important that the people in charge know that you're willing to put the work in and be where your career goals are, because they're the ones ultimately responsible if you're going to stay there. So I would say it's a combination of both, Paul, that you have you have to first and foremost, you know, be a very good employee and obviously be a good performer at the job you're doing before you start, you know, parading around, you know. Sure. Yeah. Ask him to be the next vice president. Right. So.
Paul Graham [00:06:37] Yeah, certainly. How did you approach a job hoppers in the sense of, you know, hiring. Were you direct with the thought? Was that something you wouldn't, you know, consider certainly that viewpoint could have changed over time. But or has it changed, you know, over time because there are unique situations where people, you know, should or could or maybe needed to. But also there's that, you know, red flag that's kind of starting to raise.
Mark Gustafson [00:07:03] Know it was never a it was never a knockout that said, oh, we're not going to even consider this candidate. Absolutely not. I think it was what my interviews were very different minded people. I was very honest with people. And, you know, I would even tell them, you know, hey, look, your next question should be, what are your concerns about hiring me this year? You should ask that question, by the way, because that's a great question. If you're a candidate and then you know where you stand to me, I'd want to know where I stand as a candidate. And so but no, I was very truthful and honest and said, look, I see you changed jobs five times in the last, you know, whatever, whatever doesn't matter. Tell me what you know, what caused you to leave, because part of it is, I view it as my responsibility as the business leader to maintain employees and keep them around long term. If that's what my my intent goals are. So that means you have to build a good culture. You have to build a, you know, a team based, you know, culture to make people want to stay. So it's a shared responsibility. So I don't just, you know, consider that, you know, as a knock out whatsoever. I think people moving around is, I think more than ever to in today's world, it's it's very, very common. So I think you miss out on a lot of good people if that's something you would consider. I don't know if that answers your question or. Yeah.
Paul Graham [00:08:12] No. Yeah. I mean, it's a good perspective to say, you know. No, it's not a hard set rule. There are concerns. Right. And and understanding how that, you know, comes to be and then seeing if, you know, the proof's in the pudding, right. Either with potentially hiring them or I know sometimes it's hey, we have this like little task for you to do. Let's, let's see how they perform. How bad do they, you know, really want it, and also how they respond to how bad they really want it. Someone could really want something that's not of service, like, you know, to them and to the org. And that's just, you know, a wish and a.
Mark Gustafson [00:08:45] And to me it's trying to get you peeling back an onion. Right? I mean, how do you get to the core of the heart of the matter here? And it's it's the character of the person that to me was like, you know, I thought kind of the most important. I always thought the stuff that we did, you know, we could teach any part of it other than, I don't want to give someone a four year accounting degree. I don't have the time for that. But but you have to peel it back to understand what's their motivation. You know, when I hired people, I gave them case studies. And, you know, we took them out to dinner for an interview with my management team. We had dinner and maybe had a couple of drinks, would get them back to a hotel room, and I would give them a case to do. So. I had to stay up pretty much all night. If they wanted to get succeed in the interview, then you get to know how well they will help, how much they really want this job. I mean, if they came in prepared the next day and I asked him, I would ask him, how much time do you spend on this? What did you do? You know, it was it was a pretty tough case. They had to come up with a solution and a proposal. I mean, we would roll play the next day for the whole day of the whole day interview, because really report jobs. And, you know, I made it meaningful. And I just thought it was a great and I wish I could say that I did it all myself, but I did need a great team of people to help me do this. Then it was a great way to do it. I think the more real experience you can give people when you're interviewing, as well as the management team and the team that never even manager. Some of them are, you know, my my employees that got involved. And when they got excited about hiring somebody, you know, you're hiring the right person.
Paul Graham [00:10:05] Yeah. How have you developed good character?
Mark Gustafson [00:10:08] I'm not sure you can. I mean, developing good character is I think that's I mean, you have an influence over that because, you know, I mean, you don't want to. You don't want people to be doing things that are, you know, just right on the line of being lawful, unlawful, ethical, unethical, all those things. I think having, you know, moral compass, strong ethics, I think is always helpful. And knowing that there's been right and wrong.
Paul Graham [00:10:30] Yeah.
Mark Gustafson [00:10:31] And that's I think a huge part of it. And I think you can it's still a way of doing business. And hopefully people observe that and they appreciate that. And they you know, I want to be like that. And I was around people like that when I was an employee, not a business leader. And I think it I'm not sure, develop my character as much as I observed how people responded to certain challenges. And you could go one of two ways. And when they always picked the side of, you know, morals and ethics versus, you know, unethical and immoral, that's always a difference maker to me.
Paul Graham [00:11:03] So did did you then or maybe how did you, you know, build, grow, become aware of others, other characters for team or otherwise.
Mark Gustafson [00:11:13] I think it's, you know, I think when you're around people that that aren't as ethical, you kind of know it. Right? Okay. And so I mean, is.
Paul Graham [00:11:23] Is it immediately obvious or is it like a slow burn or does it depend or.
Mark Gustafson [00:11:27] Great question. I think you have to you have to be careful. You don't be too quick to judge, you know. Sure. I worked with a guy and he, you know, is his quote was always, you know, never judge a man at his worst. And I'm like, that's a really good quote. I hope people would say that about me every once in a while. Right. So but I think when you just see a pattern, I think than, you know, a zebra and leopards don't change stripes or spots. So I think I'm not sure which quote it is, but no, I, you know, there's examples that I have or I've had to work for people that I just didn't like their morals and ethics. And quite frankly, it led to my early retirement. So, you know, if you want to know, how can do you retire so early? Well, you just decide that the people you work for aren't worth it anymore. That's one good reason. Yeah, that's my story, quite frankly, in a nutshell. I just got tired of better be careful what I say. I'm on a podcast. They might hear this. I don't know, maybe I should too much, you.
Paul Graham [00:12:16] Know, I mean, it's it's a it's a good point to just say like, hey, like, you know, there are seasons and run rates of things, right? For either what they are doing or thinking about doing, whether it may be known in, say, the public or known and, you know, private of the walls. Right.
Mark Gustafson [00:12:30] I was really appalled that lucky for 25 years I worked with some of the the best people in the industry, some of the best, you know, ethical people. So I did look around for the financial services and I looked at, you know, all stuff that Congress is doing and they're coming down all these financial institutions. And I'm like, I don't know what they're talking about. We don't do any of this stuff, what is going on? And then we went through a number of mergers and I ended up, you know, working with a group of people that, you know, weren't as good as the people I worked for for 25 years. So that changed over. And I was like, maybe this is what the real world is like. And I just didn't know any better, right? Yeah. I just didn't know that people actually had to put up with this stuff. So I think that's what the real story is, if you ask me and I, it's just that fortunate.
Paul Graham [00:13:09] But sure, I rode a good wave and were around, you know, good people and it seems like, yeah, of good character certainly being around more people, there's, you know, some bad eggs. So you get kind of more exposed to or things like that within kind of team members and how maybe you like hired or were around them or things like that. Did you go down a path of understanding what, like their vision and their goals were and their, you know, career goals were or how was that kind of approach?
Mark Gustafson [00:13:34] I think we were pretty. I think we're pretty. What's the right word? I don't think rigid. We we spent a lot of time talking with our team members about where they want to go and help them on their career path, for sure. And I just think having I always felt having a strong bench for every position was important. Yeah, because you never know who's going to lead next and you had to be ready for.
Paul Graham [00:13:54] Sure, you know.
Mark Gustafson [00:13:55] For all those possibilities. And so yeah, I think we there's always more you can do. But for the most part yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's a time commitment. Right. So if you want a good culture and you want people to feel valued and you want and if you have to truly believe you value them, otherwise you wouldn't be able to do that work. But I always enjoyed that part of the, the job was the human resources part of, I would call it training, as much as I would call it developing and and helping people succeed.
Paul Graham [00:14:19] Yeah, certainly. What what's your vision? Where are you off to next?
Mark Gustafson [00:14:23] What am I off to next? You know, that's a great question. I don't know, I have no answers right now. It's I listen to a few podcasts. I may or may not sure which ones I listen to, but I will say I do like Father Mike's Bible. Any of your podcasts? That's a good one. Just to share that with everybody. One let's see. But no, I'm in retirement. I've been retired for eight years, and I tried to consulting business, and I learned that it's really difficult to rename and rebrand yourself as a consultant after 30 years as a commercial lender with the same institution. So, you know, that's a difficult thing to do. And so right now I'm just taking a break and enjoying life. But frankly, I may never go back to work again. I don't know.
Paul Graham [00:15:02] Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. And it's great to be open to. You know, the possibility of how things, you know, come up or potentially form, you know, throughout your career, how did you, you know, approach that? Right? Like we had a chance to talk a little bit about how I believe there's a number of different initiatives on going about of like, hey, let's buy this business to, you know, have enough cash flow to, you know, retire and, you know, buy enough real estate to, you know, retire, and these kind of things, you've definitely, you know, lived a different life. What is you have a different perspective. What have you found like over that course. Right. Like not to say would you, you know, change anything. But how have you maybe viewed those individuals who are, you know, going down that path in the sense of like there's this extreme of let's just, you know, do that thing and kind of, you know, retire in 12 months. And there's, hey, let's play like that long game. Like, would you think there's a middle ground of. So, you know, what would that kind of middle ground be?
Mark Gustafson [00:15:56] Well, I, I'm not sure how to answer that question because there's, there are sayings that exist in they're, they're sayings because they're true. Right. So, you know, if you enjoy what you're doing, you never work a day in your life. Right? So that's the saying. And it's the reason it's a saying. It's because it's true. So, you know, first and foremost, if you find something you enjoy doing, you know, by all means, that's that's the path. And that's always my advice for people is, you know, if someone's, you know, frustrated, whatever I do enjoy what you're doing is always my first question. If the answer is no, then it's like, well, why aren't you looking for something you enjoy to do and think about what you enjoy doing? And how do you turn that into a job or to monetize that? But, you know, it's a tough question, Paul, because, you know, I mean, to to survive in this world, you have to have money, right? So there's there's that, but you also have to have a personal drive and enjoy it. So to me, it was there was always a drive to succeed. And maybe it was, it was either a drive to succeed or a fear of failure. It maybe was a combination of both, I don't know. But yeah. There's definitely there's every day was different. And so that's, I mean, drive a different perspective. I don't know that I do, but then, look, I just I woke up in the morning and said, I'm, I do the best I can for my family for, for and the position I had is running a business. It was for the best for my people that I work, that I work with, and that was always my goal every day. And so, gosh, I mean, you know, it's hard to say, well, gee, I want to have X amount of money when I return. I want to have X amount of money at the end of this year and or I don't care. I mean, I look at today's world, I think of, you know, our young people. Paul I'm not sure. Are you young anymore? I'm sure.
Paul Graham [00:17:29] I don't know. I don't know what the threshold changes you to vote. Now that that's.
Mark Gustafson [00:17:33] You're right on the precipice. So young. And I don't know something else, but.
Paul Graham [00:17:36] Depends on the day.
Mark Gustafson [00:17:37] Yeah, yeah, but I think it's, you know, I just think, boy, there's a lot of young people out at the dinner today. I mean, the restaurant, it's like I'm thinking, oh, I'm not sure I can even afford being here. And I look at, you know, this place full of young people, like. Yeah. So it's I was always part of your point, and you're part of one here is because of your dad talking now. But I was always a saver. Not so much a spender. And so, you know, the challenge I have today in retirement is yes, I did well. And now I'm flipping to being well. You you don't make any money, so you really can't save anything. Right. So yeah that comes down to what we have to just spend less. Right. So how much do I spend and how much money not spend. And but now it's it's good to have goals. But I think it's also it's not the end all either right. Yeah. And you know once you get married you have a family, you have kids. I mean, your priorities change, you know, year to year, day to day. And I think to me, I learned this from my wife when we moved to my first job, we moved to Arizona. And her perspective was, it's going to be an adventure. So a lot of the kids up and drove down to Arizona and it was an adventure. And so I think it's okay to at the end what the end of the story is, right?
Paul Graham [00:18:40] Yeah. Yeah. No. Absolutely. And I mentioned this like the most beautiful, wonderful like amazing things that I have been fortunate to experience in my life have been unknown and unpredictable. And through those things, they weren't planned. Or maybe there was some like ideation of, hey, you know, moving from Colorado to Texas, plus also considering California and also considered Boston for a couple of weeks when I was there for the Forbes Under 30 conference. But there wasn't a feeling of, you know, it felt right. And it, you know, felt like that, you know, adventure. And so for me, you know, through alignment with my faith and just kind of puzzle pieces and a little bit of a cliff jump and, you know, like, you know, I've been able to experience a lot of things. So, yeah, I would totally agree, you know, with it for the individuals who because I mean, goodness, I could have, you know, felt this way, you know, two years ago. And then for, you know, a previous or the most recent corporate job I had, I was very aligned with, like the people I was with, the purpose of what we were going after that, you know, and the impact, you know, that we could make. There's a beautiful saying. My mom said it all, you know, probably butcher, but it's just like, you're not going to like everything that you do. Right? And so enjoyment is not, you know, 100%. And I think there's a difference between like enjoyment and purpose. And so how would you maybe balance the words that are, you know, purpose of, oh, is this my purpose? And do I enjoy everything that I'm doing? Right, like they're going to be things that you don't enjoy doing? How through this, you know, process. Were you able to keep. What I want to find is like homeostasis, because I found again through my career, I've been yeah, a little career hobby really just been from an income standpoint of, you know, in the span of four years, I was able to double my W-2 income. And, you know, through that it's like, well, yeah, like, what kind of why would I not otherwise do that? Especially when I had the skills, resources, ability and impact to do so. But that was kind of because of an unknown, easy thing within myself, like you mentioned. Like I don't want to be the SVP. And it's like, well, we're we're trying to get you to the manager level. And then there's the VP like, you know, let's not ask to be CEO day, you know, three, right? Or even day five. What was that kind of like homeostasis process. Did that change over time? Is it a mindset. Is it actions? Is it, you know, gratitudes in the morning? What does that look like, look like, feel like or maybe even tactical as well?
Mark Gustafson [00:20:53] Well, I think it's when you look when you interview for a job, there's there's two things going on here, right? I mean, there's the employer who doesn't know anything about you and you don't anything about don't know anything about them. Right. You. Right. So when you start on day one, you're already developing a perception of do I make the right choice because you still don't know when you start a new job at a new company or a new responsibility? And so I think over time you start developing, you know, your own, you know, feeling and sense of, am I in the right place? Right. And so sometimes it just doesn't work out. It wasn't what you thought it was going to be. And if you don't go home at night pinching yourself, gosh, I'm the luckiest guy in the world to have this job and to work with, you know, the people I work with know that's kind of how that make it sound, Pollyanna. I mean, I didn't go home every night and pinch myself thinking, this is the best, but, you know, I would every once in a while, I'll think like, you know, wow. I mean, I can't believe I'm doing this stuff, really. And so you kind of know. And so if you're not in the right place, you know, I absolutely encourage people to find a better place. And so that happens to people. And so you can't, you know, or better opportunities come along like in your example. I mean, that's just all because it's not that you're necessarily looking for the next, you know, double your income job and maybe sometimes you or it's when you're making $18,000 a year, like I was out of college, it's it's easier to find a job that increases your income after that. Right. Sure. But you know, it's like those are those are deeper questions and we probably have time for. But my short answer is, I think, you know, you know, when you're in the right place and when you're not in the right place, I think sometimes it's even harder to try to move and find a new place because you kind of know what what you know what bad looks like. Right? And so how do you make sure you don't do that? Again? It all comes with experience. And so it just like it's it's difficult to find the really the great job. And to your point you know your mom's exactly right I mean it's gosh you know, it's you don't like everything that your job has just that's it's a fact. I think too many people focus on the bad parts of their job versus the good parts. And, you know, when the bad parts outweigh the good, then, you know, I guess that's, you know, you got to do an inventory of of what your responsibilities are. And look at that. Yeah. I would like something. I think it has to align with your values. Right. Yeah.
Paul Graham [00:23:01] Certainly. Would you say there's more of a starting kind of conversation in terms of thinking or more feeling in the sense of maybe the the job, the industry, the career, like how have you approached those that kind of dynamic?
Mark Gustafson [00:23:15] Make sure I understand your question. I mean, so like, how do you pick what field they talk about? So yeah, you would say it's I.
Paul Graham [00:23:21] I mean it'd be more it would be more thought to say to, to the generic person. Right. So an individual say in college or seasoned person or, you know, an extremely seasoned person, right? They have in industry, they have a like kind of career potentially. And then they have a like specific role. Right. And so it's more the specific question is you mentioned, you know, thinking a little bit and you also mentioned the word feeling. Right. And so I'm thinking from like a tactical standpoint like would your advice, your perspective be think through things first and then, you know, feel them. Hey, I really like, you know, building with Legos, right. Therefore any time I can can build something, I want to build software, right. In a lot of ways, that's how I got into product management. Or is it more feeling of like, whoa, I like seeing, you know, plants grow. And logically, I can do that through, you know, working with software developers to build software like the end result could be the same. It's just more how you're approaching it. It's almost like Simon Sinek of why, how what like his Ted talk, right? And how you're going about things. The end result and the same words could be there. It's more is the approach starting with more of a thinking, intuitive, logical or more kind of a feeling.
Mark Gustafson [00:24:31] I like your analogies there because I like I like thinking big first, okay, and then think small. So for example, I'll give you, you know, I graduated with an accounting and a computer science degree. And I had honestly, I didn't know which direction I wanted to go. Do I want to go the accounting direction to where I want to go, you know, software, computer development, you know, software to to whatever computer. So I didn't know. I just knew that those are both good degrees in 1985 because they were sought after. So and I like numbers. And so I, I enjoyed all that logic stuff. And so I did that and honestly I. I didn't get hired by any of those. I didn't get hired by any of the accounting firms. I didn't get hired by, you know, the IBM or the software and computer companies. I honestly don't know why to this day. I mean, I had a good GPA, you know, so around 3.3. Yeah. That's not good, I don't know. I thought it was pretty good.
Paul Graham [00:25:23] I mean it, yeah. But like more of, like.
Mark Gustafson [00:25:26] My.
Paul Graham [00:25:26] Job.
Mark Gustafson [00:25:26] But yeah, my point is I ended up I found a job from a my best friend's wedding I went to, and he worked for the bank. And so that's how I ended up where I ended up. And and I just decided, you know, I'm going to keep an open mind. So to me, it was okay. Yeah, I think just think big and think global. Think, you know, bigger about what you enjoy doing and then try to narrow it down if you do what you get it. So keep an open mind I guess is it'd be my in. Look, there are people who absolutely want to be electrical engineers and work for, you know, the city of Denver. I mean, that's wonderful. I think that's what I admire, and I'm jealous of those people like that. So but, you know, I we started big, I worked I worked in a commercial finance company. And so we had there's two types of people. You're either a sales person or you're a credit person. Right. So I always ask people when they want it to be promoted to a lender or to a salesperson. It was always, you know, what do you enjoy more? Do you enjoy looking at new business transaction or do you enjoy getting out of a tough workout? What do you enjoy more? You'd be surprised how many people say, oh, I enjoy the workout experience, or I enjoy, you know, I enjoy sales and I say, okay, so that's how you know what what what direction to focus in.
Paul Graham [00:26:33] Yeah, no, but it.
Mark Gustafson [00:26:35] Comes out to a bigger question or a broad question of just one question that can answer it for, you know, what do you have to think of what the question is?
Paul Graham [00:26:41] Yeah, definitely. Yeah. The questions we ask, we sell ourselves, you know, kind of create the life that we have, you know, around us and the people that we're interacting with. It also seems like, from what, you know, shared on, like, you kind of became like the fix it sort of person, right? That you're doing that within, you know, technology and sort of computers. And then that went into, you know, lending and finance and we're still able to take those skills and that perspective and, you know, launch it into that, into that space, which is fascinating. But I found I used to be in software sales, and I sat next to someone who had a masters in art pottery from the University of Arizona State versus Arizona State University. And Eric's a great guy. And it's to say, like, how does this align or matter? And it's like, well, we have all different interests. We have the ability to, you know, solve problems or be creative and things like that, or just in different, you know, facets, functions and, you know, skills and experiences to, you know, drive revenue or, or save costs or, you know, whatever kind of a business needs that, you know, the degree doesn't necessarily matter. Certainly, you know, it helps get in the door with the experience. And as you mentioned to the character of the individual really transcends what they, you know, can can get done, you know, ethically as well as, I mean, I would think like on time and in budget, right? Because if I have good high character and probably these other things. Right. Just like with discipline, you're disciplined in one thing. You tend to be pretty darn disciplined in other things. Right? So that's a great, great perspective for last question for our time here is, you know, this is a guide to joy. So what would you leave listeners in terms of like, you know, a quote, a prospective mindset, motto, mantra, you know, what comes to mind? What would you sign your name with?
Mark Gustafson [00:28:22] What are said? Many. What's I got? Well, I have two that I think I would I would think about perfect are both from Thomas Jefferson. I'll give you, I'll give you, I'll give you one to think about. And Thomas Jefferson wrote this. He said, every human being, he's writing to somebody in the letter, every human being, my dear, must thus be viewed according to what it is good for. For none of us, not one of us is perfect. And were we to love none, we had imperfections. This world would be a desert for our love. So that's a. He's advising his daughter to approach things with what he would call forbearance. And so it's just an interesting, I think, take on the world today. You looked at a long time ago and I think it's still very relevant. So that's great.
Paul Graham [00:29:03] What's the what's the other quote.
Mark Gustafson [00:29:04] Or do you want the other one to.
Paul Graham [00:29:06] I mean it's your name.
Mark Gustafson [00:29:09] I can share that with you. It's a little bit longer okay. Hopefully I read that one okay. But yeah this is more to your I think more relevant to your topic. I would say. Cool. So he wrote this. The fact is that one new idea leads to another, that to a third and so on through the course of time until someone with whom no one of these ideas was original combines all together and produces what is justly called a new invention. When I contemplate the immense advances in science.
Paul Graham [00:29:37] And.
Mark Gustafson [00:29:37] Discoveries in the arts which have been made then the period of my life, I look forward with confidence to equal advances by the present generation, and have no doubt they will consequently be as much wiser than we have been as we that our fathers were. And then they, the burners of witches. I kind of like that part, but. But it's very true, very true.
Paul Graham [00:29:57] So yeah. Yeah, I love the. Yeah. One thought leads to another sort of piece. It's, it's had gone about building software and then just building companies that. Not knowing the outcome, but just constantly making that progress in those steps. So yeah, that's a great reminder for me today and I will.
Mark Gustafson [00:30:13] It's a great reminder. It's a very positive. It's a very positive thought. I think it's very positive way to go about, you know, business and ideas and inventions and. Yeah. Yeah. So it's it's it's just when you think this next generation is screwing everything up, you can go read that. And, you know, it could be the ones that are going to be the real, you know, generators of ideas. Right. So every generation has said that about the next. I'm convinced.
Paul Graham [00:30:34] So sure. Yeah, I'll post on LinkedIn. We'll see if the boomers and others will like my status. But sounds great and I appreciate your time. Mark, thanks so much for being on today.
Mark Gustafson [00:30:43] You're very welcome. Good seeing you, Paul.
Paul Graham [00:30:45] You as well. Thanks for joining the investors guy to join today where we aim to change your life by one degree in each episode. These days I'm raising funds for oil and Gas Syndications, a luxury short term rental super property syndication, which is a lot of fun and managed by Luxury Desert Escapes. I also help people get what they want through finance, mindset and action to help them eliminate worry, build better habits, create their life, and live their life. If any of these things seem of interest to you or you just want to chat, connect with me. Let's chat more until we see you again.